Petra ([info]petronelle) wrote,
@ 2008-04-22 16:57:00
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Current mood:sick at heart
Current music:The Pussy Manifesto in self-defense

My body is not yours to hold
The public domain breast bullshit gives me two responses, one pleased and one sickened:

The former is a knee-jerk "Augh, MEN!" softened by my male SO's immediate, vehement response paralleling misia's "Ask to kick me in the balls!" suggestion.

The latter is the realization that I have never been accosted in the sort of way that so many women describe when this sort of misogynistic bullshit comes up. The sickening part is that, no matter how much I want to never think this again, the lack of being verbally assaulted on the street makes me wonder whether I am attractive.

I know I am beautiful in the eyes of all the people who matter to me, first and foremost myself and counting down from there to all of the people who are simply proud to know me. However, that doesn't make the self-hating whisper go away, and I don't know how to make it die.

Oh, my society, stop making me wonder why the notion that women are people is still a radical one.

ETA - One of the comment threads is frozen because I don't have enough energy to spare to moderate people's responses, and I don't care to host a flamewar. Sorry.


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[info]lcsbanana
2008-04-22 09:08 pm UTC (link)
yeah, i've never been harrassed on the street, which i know is largely because i don't go out much at all and don't live in an urban environment where people really walk around in public much.

but i also know it's because i went on brain drugs at age 10 and got very fat, very fast, and have pretty much kept going since. to the point where i'm wondering if part of the reason it's hard for me to lose weight is because i'm fucking terrified of men starting to see me.

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[info]gamesiplay
2008-04-22 10:22 pm UTC (link)
to the point where i'm wondering if part of the reason it's hard for me to lose weight is because i'm fucking terrified of men starting to see me.

:/ I know what you mean. For all that I hate low self-esteem days when I feel unattractive, I also find there's this pitfall in the high self-esteem days--when I feel attractive, I also feel more vulnerable to unwanted male attention. It SUCKS.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gamesiplay, 2008-04-23 03:36 am UTC

[info]ratcreature
2008-04-22 10:23 pm UTC (link)
You know, in my experience looks really don't matter. Well maybe for the frequency, but not for the principle. I've been asked by random men to "go out for a coffee" (during the day) or "for a drink" (evening/night) while being over 30kg fatter than I am now (and according to these BMI tables I still ought to weigh 15kg less), wearing shapeless jeans, boots and two layers of clothing (none of the clothes specifically female or revealing anything) with no makeup, sloppy hair and acne pimples. I've been hassled while standing somewhere waiting for public transport reading a book and avoiding eye contact, I've been asked when I was obviously unwell... To me it always seemed completely random.

I mean, I don't get accosted often like that, presumably because the combination of a) closed body language with b) reading something when standing or waiting somewhere and c) being fat and dressing somewhat sloppily and not with female clothes brings across the idea that I'm not interested, but it still happens every now and then.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2008-04-23 05:16 am UTC
I posted this at Brown Betty's page, but I loved it so.
[info]mildredmilton
2008-04-22 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I LOVED the comment by Loligo - the one where s/he suggested that theferrett and friends wear pins saying, "I would like to be asked if I can touch your boobs," or "please do not pester me with your body parts." That was brilliant. It didn't go over well with theferrett.

I'm guessing that theferrett would feel a little exposed if he had either one of these pins. He'd be advertizing his need to everyone on the floor. He'd get some bad responses. Some people would sneer at him. Some people would laugh. Some people would ask him to touch body parts that he didn't want to touch.

Maybe some other men would be laughed at even if they didn't wear the pin, just because they were around him. Maybe he'd be worried about a whole lot of men being tarred with the same brush. Maybe he'd be worried about ending up on an internet site with this button on proudly displayed and the site's commenters would laugh at him. Maybe a bunch of women would avoid him or dislike him. Or, conversely, he could be mobbed, set on by person after person who wanted to make his con experience about something *they* might enjoy rather than something he migh enjoy.

And always, he'd be waiting and waiting, wondering what people thought. Wondering who was going to ask him and whether he would want to do anything, and how to say no, and what their reaction to that might be.

In other words, *he* would have to carry the whole burden for his mystical, healing experience. And as much as he would love to worm his way out of that by talking about how he wouldn't get as many numbers and women might feel self-conscious asking him, the fact is that he's trying to get out of it because that doesn't sound quite as fun.

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Re: I posted this at Brown Betty's page, but I loved it so.
[info]petronelle
2008-04-23 01:08 am UTC (link)
I truly love that. Thank you for sharing it with me.

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[info]mildredmilton
2008-04-22 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Hey, sorry to post again, but I want to respond to some of the more personal stuff.

The latter is the realization that I have never been accosted in the sort of way that so many women describe when this sort of misogynistic bullshit comes up.

Do you know when my peak "hey there, goodlookin'" years were? When I was 12-15. Those weren't especially pretty years. They were the years before I learned to glare, to thousand-yard stare, and to armor myself up a little. This kind of thing depends on many factors. The one that seemed most important in my experience was vulnerability - not prettiness.

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[info]brown_betty
2008-04-23 12:36 am UTC (link)
This kind of thing depends on many factors. The one that seemed most important in my experience was vulnerability — not prettiness.

YES. I mean, the mentally ill are not the most beautiful of all of us, but they are the most sexually abused. And it feels like this guy wants a way to get access to the non-vulnerable.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]petronelle
2008-04-23 01:09 am UTC (link)
That's *intensely* creepy. No 13 year old should get propositioned, even by a 15 year old.

Hurrah for armor -- I suppose.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]rubynye
2008-04-23 01:34 am UTC (link)
Yes, this.

I mean... on the one hand, I am not a smashing beauty, and I have had things happen since I first had breasts. I shouldn't even phrase it that way --- every so often some man invades my space with words, movement, and/or grabby hands, and if there's any correlation with anything, it's when I've been less armored.

And we shouldn't have to be psychically armored just to ride a bus or walk down the street and all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]avariel_wings
2008-04-22 09:37 pm UTC (link)
I have never been accosted in the sort of way that so many women describe when this sort of misogynistic bullshit comes up.

I have. I was once approached on the seafront in Brighton - and yes, I was probably wearing a low-cut top at the time, but that's not supposed to matter anymore, right? - by a man I'd never seen before in my life who said, and I quote, "You've got beautiful breasts. Do you want to go to the beach with me?"

Fortunately, he was very polite about it and went away quietly when I said no, but it was kind of terrifying anyway. And if I was accosted by a group of men - or women, for that matter - wanting to touch my breasts, it doesn't matter if it was ostensibly my choice to say yes or no, I would feel very, very pressured to say yes or else to run very fast in the opposite direction.

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[info]sinisterf
2008-04-22 09:44 pm UTC (link)
However, that doesn't make the self-hating whisper go away, and I don't know how to make it die.

Funny how our society makes women feel incomplete without inappropriate male attention. It is a horrible double evil, first that men feel they can harass us and treat our bodies like nothing more than their property. Secondly that they ingrain in us, from a young age, that this is where our worth lies.

This is not to say I blame you for feeling that way. Not at all, because I know many women do/ and have had these feelings before, including myself. It is just an observation on the horribleness of the circumstance.

As for men not yelling at you on the street. You've probably never been in the right place. It seems to occur more in certain areas or circumstances from my experience.

For example there are hundreds of gas stations in my city, yet there is this specific one where I was always hassled. I noticed a sharp increase in street harassment after I had moved... I realized afterwards that it only ever happened (well recently anyways) in that neighborhood, especially at that gas station. Made me feel real safe living by there...

Edited at 2008-04-22 09:46 pm UTC

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[info]mhari
2008-04-22 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Hm. Under the circumstances, should I ask before I give you e-hugs? <3

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[info]petronelle
2008-04-23 01:16 am UTC (link)
They wouldn't exactly be hands in new places under the circumstances, now, would they? ;)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]mhari, 2008-04-23 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:31 am UTC

[info]_grayswandir_
2008-04-22 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Eh. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but frankly, I think a lot of it women call on themselves by the way they dress. I've gotten propositioned a few times, but only when I was wearing the kind of clothes that invite that sort of thing. If I'm just wearing normal clothes, T-shirts and jeans or whatever, nobody even looks twice at me.

In general, guys don't dress to attract attention to the shape of their bodies, which I don't doubt is part of the reason nobody much thinks about the male body as this sexual wonderland thing. But the female body is advertised -- often by the very people who have to walk around in it -- as a delicious, beautiful, sexual object. Of course guys are going to take notice, and of course what they're thinking about won't be how smart you are. You know?

I'm not saying there aren't guys who will molest a woman no matter what she's wearing; there are. But on the whole, I think women themselves are setting a double-standard, wanting to be sexy without inspiring sexual thoughts or behaviors. It's not like it's that hard not to advertise your breasts.

(Replies frozen)(Thread)

[info]sinisterf
2008-04-22 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Hate to be a dissenter but cars are also advertised as awesome, sexy, desirable etc. Yet no one seems to think it is ok to just take one.

A guy who buys a nice car may expect people to look, perhaps a polite compliment. He may even expect that someone would steal it. However, I seriously doubt that he would think that stealing it was ok, and neither would anyone else.

Of course the above doesn't fit completely to the situation at had because women are people, not cars. Which really should insinuate they have more rights to decent behavior from others.

Let me just say, wearing a shirt that shows cleavage certainly invites some attention. However, like having a nice car, it does not invite nor make it ok to take what is being shown.

(Replies frozen)(Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-22 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-22 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-22 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gamesiplay, 2008-04-22 10:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-22 10:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-22 11:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gamesiplay, 2008-04-22 11:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-22 11:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lcsbanana, 2008-04-23 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-23 12:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lcsbanana, 2008-04-23 12:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-23 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-22 11:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rubynye, 2008-04-23 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2008-04-22 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-22 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2008-04-22 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]marinarusalka, 2008-04-22 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]_grayswandir_, 2008-04-23 01:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rubynye, 2008-04-23 01:49 am UTC

[info]life_on_queen
2008-04-22 10:15 pm UTC (link)
GRR. ARRGH. GRR.

Why? Dude - yes, let's all get over society's obsession with objectifying women. How we don't do this? BY INVITING PEOPLE TO OBJECTIFY YOU! FAIL! FAIL! DANGER WILLA ROBINSON!

I don't blame men, I specifically blame the assholes who came up with this idea and responded to people (not all of them female) asking they were high by saying "aw, you don't have to if you don't want to" - thereby making my desire not to have my breasts fondled by strangers or even to have strangers ask MY problem. A kick in the balls is the least they deserve.

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:27 am UTC

[info]fairestcat
2008-04-22 10:41 pm UTC (link)
The sickening part is that, no matter how much I want to never think this again, the lack of being verbally assaulted on the street makes me wonder whether I am attractive.

*hugs* Yeah, that exactly.

I kept thinking of how there was clearly some sort of informal asking of people if they wanted to "join the movement" as it were at the con and how it might feel, whether you wanted to partake or not, to be the woman who was never even asked. Because that right there plays into the whole thing all over again.

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(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:27 am UTC
My eyes are my eyes. / Your hands are your hands.
[info]gamesiplay
2008-04-22 10:41 pm UTC (link)
Coincidentally, the first thing that popped into my head when I read that post earlier was also "The Rape of Miss Goldberg." Ugh, ugh, UGH, there are not words in the world to describe how creeped out I am.

Echoing what people have said below: I've actually found that random propositions from men don't seem to have that much to do with objective physical attractiveness. For example, the last time it happened to me, I stopped at the grocery store on my way home from the gym. So I was sweaty and red in the face and wearing sweats, and I did not smell like roses. And a drunk guy came up to me in the checkout line and wanted me to talk to him about The Phallus.

--I mean, granted, drunk college boys will hit on anything, and with an English major it takes a while to get from "talking about The Phallus" to "whipping out Your Penis." But still, the intention was clear, and I can guarantee that it had nothing to do with how pretty I looked.

(Reply to this)(Thread)
Re: My eyes are my eyes. / Your hands are your hands. - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:28 am UTC
Re: My eyes are my eyes. / Your hands are your hands. - [info]gamesiplay, 2008-04-23 03:35 am UTC
Re: My eyes are my eyes. / Your hands are your hands. - [info]gamesiplay, 2008-04-23 06:26 am UTC
Re: My eyes are my eyes. / Your hands are your hands. - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 09:48 am UTC

[info]minim_calibre
2008-04-23 12:39 am UTC (link)
The sickening part is that, no matter how much I want to never think this again, the lack of being verbally assaulted on the street makes me wonder whether I am attractive.

I hate society so much right now. So, so much.

(I've been harassed, and when I go through periods when I'm not, I wonder the same thing. And then I kind of hate myself.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:29 am UTC

[info]brown_betty
2008-04-23 12:42 am UTC (link)
It keeps on coming around to offending me in new ways. (I'm glad he's recanted, but ARGH)

And one of those ways is the idea that 'opt-in.' You know what? We're women. We never got a chance to opt-in to being sexually objects, to being harassed, asked, presumed to have no particular bodily autonomy. So you can take your opt-in pin and use it for anal play.

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-23 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-23 05:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brown_betty, 2008-04-23 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sinisterf, 2008-04-23 05:35 am UTC

[info]rainbowjehan
2008-04-23 01:39 am UTC (link)
The sickening part is that, no matter how much I want to never think this again, the lack of being verbally assaulted on the street makes me wonder whether I am attractive.

Have this problem too. A lot. Is not fair.

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rainbowjehan, 2008-04-23 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rainbowjehan, 2008-04-23 02:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 02:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rainbowjehan, 2008-04-23 02:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 09:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rainbowjehan, 2008-04-24 01:55 am UTC

[info]holyschist
2008-04-23 04:06 am UTC (link)
I haven't been accosted, either, but I suspect this is because I "walk angrily" or something (which is to say, I walk like I'm going somewhere). While it is absolutely is our obligation to not "look like prey," it does seem to affect that sort of thing. I used to attract sleazy older men, and that seems to have stopped (and oh man, THAT made me wonder what the hell was wrong with me). So--I agree with [info]mildredmilton that it's more about vulnerability than anything else.

But I understand how you'd feel--I'd love to get more "Hey, you look great today"s and so on from people. Polite acknowledgment. And why should my concept of my attractiveness depend on the acknowledgment of others?

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]holyschist, 2008-04-23 04:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 09:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 09:59 am UTC

[info]unnaturale
2008-04-23 06:38 pm UTC (link)
The latter is the realization that I have never been accosted in the sort of way that so many women describe when this sort of misogynistic bullshit comes up. The sickening part is that, no matter how much I want to never think this again, the lack of being verbally assaulted on the street makes me wonder whether I am attractive.

I have no idea where you're living now, but the last time I checked, you were Rural Girl.

If you lived in Brooklyn, you would get this ALL THE TIME. Promise. My old neighborhood, in Crown Heights? Anyone with an x chromosome had guys hissing hey sexy in her ear. ANYONE. Swear to God. Except you're white, so you'd also get hey snowflake!

It has to do with (a) where you live and (b) having a vagina. Seriously, that's it. End of story.

(I have a flat chest, a lantern jaw, a broken nose, and a mean walk. When I'm in Massachusetts or in my current neighborhood, the passerby leave me be. In my old neighborhood, I had to steel myself just to walk three blocks to the subway. IT IS DEPENDENT ENTIRELY ON WHERE YOU LIVE. Promise.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]unnaturale, 2008-04-23 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unnaturale, 2008-04-23 07:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 08:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unnaturale, 2008-04-23 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-23 08:44 pm UTC

[info]mari_redstar
2008-04-24 04:37 am UTC (link)
Out of curiosity, how tall are you? I just about never get harassed, myself, and I've wondered how much of that I can chalk up to being five-foot-ten and not shy of heels.

On the other hand, I've been reliably informed that I project Doom Vibes. Nobody ever tries to convert me to their religion or give me a pamphlet for their fundraiser, either. Apparently my attempt at a friendly expression comes across as "will rip your throat out with my teeth at the slightest provocation." Would be a useful talent, if only I could figure out how to turn it on and off...

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(no subject) - [info]petronelle, 2008-04-24 10:09 am UTC
Harrassment on the street
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 05:44 am UTC (link)
I don't get much harrassment on the street--I'm fat, flat, 50, and like relaxed casual clothes--but it doesn't hurt that I live in a smallish college town and am never downtown when it's very drunk out. And since my meds aren't compatible with likker, I'm not in bars much.

But back when I was 18, I did spend my freshman year here as a college blonde--still flat and widehipped, but only 15 pounds overweight, and with apricot-blonde hair halfway down my back. (It's since darkened with age.) And the drinking age was 18....

I got my share of drunks and suggestive remarks, but nothing that felt dangerous. What I hated was every guy's assumption that my being attractive to him gave him the RIGHT to harrass me, proposition me, or (my least favorite) get an inappropriate crush on me and insist on mooning around me and making drunk suicide threats and all. Yergh.

Guys, I am not a public facility or a constitutional right.

I know it's partly a gender thing; by both evolution and culture the AVERAGE woman is more aware of other people's feelings and, y'know, their reality, than the AVERAGE man. Especially the average drunk college boy.

I mean, unless I'm feeling physically threatened, I don't mind men or women checking to find out *whether* I'm interested, even if they're too drunk to be very smooth about it.

"Hey, babe, wanna have sex?" "Nope." "Okay." No problem.

What I mind is people who don't see that I'm real and HAVE feelings, except as something to be coaxed or bullied into doing what they want.

And I suspect if I lived in bigger cities and neighborhoods like some of y'all's, I'd be either too scared or too angry to go out on the street in safety.

But one of the few benefits of being mentally peculiar is that I can usually read mood from how someone stands or walks, etc., so I can often tell whether they ARE dangerous.

I've occasionally walked past someone who said something like "Hey, can I get me a piece of that!" where I could look back, grin, and say "I don't THINK so!" And he'd grin back, because I had correctly read him as a guy joking around rather than being genuinely predatory.

If that makes any sense.

The real thing, though? KILL 'EM ALL!

(Oops....)

--Nonie

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